'Christianity' category

 

Is God good _all_ the time?

Monday, June 22nd, 2009

Ever been to one of those church services where the leader makes a statement and the congregation (or those who are familiar with it) respond with another statement? A common one sometime back went like this..

leader: God is good
congregation: All the time!
leader: And all the time..
congergation: God is good!

If you’ve never sat through one, they can be as cheesy as that makes it sound – sometimes they’re not though and that usually depends on how many times you’ve encountered such practices (or perhaps whether you’ve read “The Visitation” by Frank Peretti :o ) ). Anyway, I digress…

How accurate is that particular meme? Is God good all the time? Well. yes of course he is but does it always feel that way? Try asking that of somebody who is going through a rough time and feels like God is silent. Try asking it of somebody who has encountered something which shakes their very faith to the core – perhaps the unexpected loss of a loved one. Try asking it of someone who is persecuted for their faith by their own family who days earlier showed them love. Try asking it of someone who feels like the walls are caving in and nobody cares. By the way, if you live in a world where Christians don’t feel like that – ever – then I suggest you may want to consider broadening your horizons or paying closer attention to the Christians around you.

In such situations it is quite normal, even (especially?) for Christians, to question the goodness of God. It is also quite usual for the Christians around them to give them the equivalent of “keep your chin up” type advice. Scriptures are quoted, demonic “presence” is prayed against and the “victim’s” apparent “lack of faith” is usually brought up – in a loving way of course. We who are not in those places (at the time) need to remember that such responses are not always as helpful as they seemed in your head. And thos eof us going through such moments, need to remember that sometimes the words which seem lacking in thought have behind them a heart which just wants to help in any way they can – a heart of love. Having recently been in a place where I questioned God’s purpose in my situation, I can testify to how good it was to receive the opposite response from the Christians around me. Encouragement without patronisation, support without even implied finger pointing, walking beside rather than before – all these responses showed me what love is. I was truly blessed by the way my brother’s and sister’s in Christ walked with me through my own personal valley, kept reminding me of the grace of God (through action more than words) and whilst giving me space — never allowed me to slip into a dangerous solitude.

At times when you are questioning your faith; your life and your God, you need people round you who will treat you like it is okay to do so but not permit you to forget why you first had those things. If you are in that place, don’t blame those trying to help – even if they are not actually helping. Look to the heart behind their actions or words and respond to that. If you are not in a valley, try to remember how it felt last time you were and try not to overwhelm the other one with your gestures or advice. Give and be receptive of support to or from the Christians around you or as Jesus commanded us: “Love one another as I have loved you”. Such love reminds us that God is good, all the time.

Will heaven be boring?

Monday, June 1st, 2009

I’ve been thinking about Heaven a lot lately. Not in a morbid sense you understand but more in terms of wondering about the future.

A common opinion I’ve heard about Heaven (even from Christians) is how it’ll probably be boring, what with everyone sitting on clouds and playing harps. Of course any reasonable study of the Biblical passages referring to the afterlife (for Christians that is) soon reveals a much different picture to the one popularised by Renaissance art. That said there will still be things happening which – from our limited perspective here on Earth – may seem to be a little less than enthralling. For example, once we are in an eternal life, where time exists but just does not have the same effect on us, then we are able to converse for longer. Conversations could well take as long as they need, hours, days, years??? On the face of it – that could seem a boredom-inducing experience. Perhaps we need a new perspective on this though.

For my part, my musings have lead me to the opinion that we won’t be bored in Heaven. The reason for this is because being bored is a somewhat selfish state of mind. We become bored because the person we are listening to, the thing we are involved in or the job we are doing is just not what we want to be doing at that moment. We generally have what we consider to be “better” things to do. Will such selfishness exist in Heaven? I think not. Certainly is Heaven is perfect then such attitudes cannot be present. “Looking out for number one” is counter to the core teachings — and life — of Christ. So without the selfishness that breeds it it’s hard to see how we could find anything in Heaven boring.

Faith lessons from a different child

Wednesday, August 16th, 2006

Some time (scarily it was nine years) ago I wrote a piece on here entitled “Touching a heart“. A few years later I followed that up with a piece called “Further lessons from a child“.

Both those pieces centered on lessons I had learned by observing my niece and I often find myself reflecting on the things I have (and haven’t) learned as a result of those experiences. Nowadays I have children of my own and just a few weeks back my son (who at the time was two and a half) taught me something about faith.

We’ve all been there, you wake up in the middle of the night and your throat is a dry as sandpaper. The trouble for my son this time was that we hadn’t left a drink next to his bed for him. So he did what toddlers do in the middle of the night and cried out for one of us to go in. My wife went and discovered the ongoing thirst issue. Actually the words my son used were “How about a nice cool drink mum?”. Mum said she would bring one and left to go downstairs.

So what did my son do during the wait? He sat on his bed quietly waiting for his Mum to return. You see he had no doubt that she would come back or that she would have the water in her hand when she did. He trusted her, implicitly and, to him, the fact that she had said she would do something was enough. No more tears, no going to the top of the stairs, no watching the door, no worrying just patience and – when she returned – thanks. In short my son has faith in his mother – and rightfully so.

So let me ask you the question this triggered me to ask myself. How often do you wait patiently for God? How much do you trust that He will do what He has said? How much faith do you have in Him?

Always handy having kids around when you need a few lessons don’t you think?

Both eyes on heaven, both feet on earth

Wednesday, August 2nd, 2006

It’s been a while since I posted something here – and longer since that was specifically applicable to Christians. Recently I was asked to give a talk (don’t like to think of them as sermons as that always conjurs images of people falling asleep) at my church. Having prayed about it I felt God wanted me to speak on His promises. One of the promises I looked at was the return of Jesus and how it should inspire us to live fuller lives here.

There’s a popular but misguided saying which says that one can be so heavenly minded they are of no earthly good and a lot of people have written a lot of good stuff to refute this. I stand among the group that feels this statement is not only false but dangerous as it prvents us thinking about the one thing that should be giving us hope.

The hope for a better future in the next world is not escapism but realism. If we , as Christians, are unable to focus on the glory that is to come then what hope can we honeslty offer to the world we live in. Without the purpose of heaven in our hearts we just become ineffective as ambassadors of Christ. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the problematic (and sometimes shameful) periods of Church history all contain – at their root – people whose focus was solely on the here and now and not the great hope of tomorrow.

CS Lewis said:

“If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did the most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next.”

And I agree. We must face life – with whatever it throws at us – with both eyes on heaven and bot feet on earth. If we don’t then I fear life will overrun us and eventually we will shrivel up in our own selfishness.

Joni Eareckson Tada wrote an excellent piece, The Earthly Good of Being Heavenly Minded [www.moodymagazine.com], for MoodyMagazine which I found when doing research for my talk. It’s an honest and frank piece and yet it speaks volumes about her approach to life and just how she “copes” with here disability.

Christianity that doesn’t spread from the fridge

Thursday, September 22nd, 2005

I have long been a fan of the open source philosophy along with others like Creative Commons. I like the way they allow you to distribute things in a fair manner whilst still protecting the author or the work to the extent they prefer. Much better than the restrictive and prohibitive copyright licences used so often today. This blog is distributed under a Creative commons licence. Basically you can distribute it without penalty or charge as long as you give others the same rights.

Recently it struck me how much the Christian viewpoint is left unhindered by such licences and how much it is hindered and impinged by copyright and publishing law.

Take for example a worship or praise song. In days of old, hymns were written by men and women for the use of all, without penalty, and the for the glory of God. They may have been published or distributed by word of mouth but rarely was there a restriction on their use. In short the aim of the author was to glorify God and they saw no reduction of this aim by allowing as many people as possible to freely and fairly use their works to this end.

These days? Somebody writes a song, releases it on a CD and then releases the sheet music under a copyright licence. Suddenly churches using these songs – to glorify God – are left with a minefield of legalese to overcome so that they are not “robbing” the author of their livlihood. Payments to copyright agencies (aren’t these just protection rackets?) abound on the off chance that you may use a song that was (shock) written to be used in that way.

In short, in 1850 somebody could write a hymn and churches could use it. Somebody hearing it in one church could introduce it to another without breaking the law. These days, you hear a song in one church, ask the musician for a copy of the sheet music and, if it is handed over, both of you are breaking the law. Result? songs that are written to worship God are not allowed to do so because it would impinge on the “rights” of the author. The same author who wrote the song to worship God! What is really meant by “rights” is “income”. If no copyright is placed on the music, or so the philosiphy goes, then you and I could distribute and sell said music and rob the author of their livlihood from selling the stuff they’ve written.

Imagine if people like Hillsongs, Survivor and Kingsway published their sheet music under a Creative Commons licence? You would be freely allowed to copy and distribute the sheet music but not sell it. So the song is used for it’s intended purpose (worshipping God) by many more churches, none of whom are breaking the law by doing so, none of whom are paying a licence fee just because they used a song in it’s indended purpose. But only the original composer/publisher may sell the song. This means a CD with it on continues to earn the composer a royalty.

Transpose this to Bibles. There are some great modern translation of the Bible. Some of you may not like them, everyone has their favourites. There are also some great computer programs to help us read and study the bible. But unless someone pays a licence then this software often only includes public domain translations like the KJV. “But if you want to use it you should pay for it” you say. fair enough but let’s take the New Century Version for example (the same applies to other versions).

I own two paper copies of the NCV in differing sizes and with differing extra bits. I also own a Palm Pilot PDA with some bible software on it. In order for me to read the NCV on my Palm Pilot I must buy another version of it. Okay so far I’m with this, seems fair. But I also own desktop bible software which doesn’t come with the NCV. I think it’s fair usage for me to want to use the same elcetronic version in two programs but only one at a time. I’ve bought the Bible (a few times now) – the translators, publishers et al have been rewarded for their work – I just want to use it on two programs. To me, this is like reading it in two different chairs. But no I would have to either wait for the software company to bring out an NCV module and then buy that one or use differing translations in differing places.

Again, suppose I have an electronic copy of a bible. I come across a friend who cannot afford one but would like one. Or I come across a friend who – not being a Christian – would like to look into the Bible on a try before you buy-in basis. I could tell both these people to go buy a modern version but doesn’t it come across as more gracious for me to give them a copy? Wouldn’t it more in the spirit of Christ for me to not expect them to pay? “So give them yours” you say – can’t it’s licenced to me and not transferrable. “Buy them one” you say – can’t because it’s no longer available for their operating system. “Copy yours – the publisher won’t mind” – no they may not mind (mostly because they wouldn’t know) but it is still illegal to do this – what does that tell my friends?

If digital versions of Bibles used Creative Commons licences then I could freely use it on any software I liked and pass it to friends for their use. At the same time I would not be allowed to sell it – only if the publisher authorises it.

“So” you’re thinking, “if the publishers use Creative Commons licences and allow you to give their stuff away – why would anyone buy them? They still lose money.”

Well, no they don’t the paper versions are still under copyright law. The recorded version of songs are also still under copyright and publishing law. And in fact if someone is given an electronic copy of a particular translation and uses it regularly, it would make sense to assume that when it comes to buying their own paper version they would plumb for the same translation.

Some authors have found that when they published their books under a Creative commons licence electronically, sales of the paper version have not dropped but been enhanced by the free distribution of the electronic one.

The point

Okay so here’s the point of this post…

It strikes me that a major aim of Christians is to become more Christ like. This would be the Christ who said “Freely you have received, freely give” then and who turned the tables on the temple sellers for making unfair profits from those who simply wanted to follow God’s way?

Where would Christianity be today if the gospel and epistle writers had prohibited copying and distribution of their writings without royalty payments? Where would we be today had people like John Wycliffe and William Tyndale had slapped copyright all over their translation or if Charles Wesley or John Newton had done the same with their hymns?

What would have happened? Christianity would have died along with the hope of humankind that it brings.

Perhaps you’re thinking that those people weren’t in this age, they didn’t need to be have been concerned about the “wrong” sorts of people corrupting their work from it’s purpose. Perhaps it’s true that they didn’t have to earn a living from their works. Perhaps these are true but most of them worked in conditions far less privielged than we do today. Most of them could have been killed if the “wrong” people got their hands on their work. Yet they did that work and they did for the higher purpose we all serve – the Kingdom of heaven.

So here’s a wake up call to the Christian publishers, Bible houses, Song composers and authors of today:

Think about why you do that work? If it’s for God’s glory and the furtherance of the God’s kingdom then are you not restricting the very purpose of that work by restricting the fair usage of it by others?

Christianity is about risks – take one with the work you do for him and see if God likes it.

What’s with all the angels?

Sunday, December 12th, 2004

Have you ever wondered why all the fuss was made at Christmas? The first Christmas I mean – the one where Mary gave birth to Jesus, stable, wise men, shepherds, inn keepers – you know the one – don’t you?

Why were the shepherds let in on the secret? Why did the magi (wise men) turn up? and What’s with all those angels?

Now don’t get me wrong I know there are plenty of reasons for all these things and I’ve heard lots of people give very valid reasons. or example I have heard it said that being a shepherd was considered one of the lowest occupations you could have and to be on the night shift was the lowest type of shepherd. Thus, it is said, God was associating his Son with the outcast from the very beginning.

I’ve also heard that the magi were considered to be the wisest of their generation and by inviting them, God was signifying the wisdom of His son. Their gifts apparently signify the wealth of a king (Gold) right through to the embalming fluid used for corpses.

Apparently everything has a reason. But recently I had a different look at this sort of event, one from the inside as it were.

My wife, Claire, gave birth to our first child, a son ( Ethan ) a few weeks back. Now I’m not saying his birth is equivalent to Jesus’ in terms of it’s affect on the world but I would like to draw on my experience at the time to make a few comparisons.

Being there

I was present throughout the long and painful labour my wife endured, I was there holding her hand when Ethan was delivered. Some one once said to me that they couldn’t see why any man would want to be present at a birth on the basis that he could not bear to see his beloved wife go through such pain. Whilst I appreciate what they were saying, to this I would say that there is no way I would have let Claire go through such an ordeal without me. I promised to be with her all the time when we married.

God is the same. He promised to be with us always and when the world was receiving his Son, he was there, still running the world. I don’t know for sure but it may have crossed Mary & Joseph’s mind that if God was with them in the form of a baby, who was going to look after the earth? The angels, the shepherds, the magi were perhaps all ways of God saying – I’m still here even though I’m there as well.Also, thinking about it, the birth of Jesus was God delivering on His promise to be with us.

Gifts

When Ethan was born the I loved him – still do – he had done nothing to deserve this love but I felt the need to show it to him, so I kissed him. If I could have rushed out and bought him something I would of.

God loves his Son. When the Magi turned up with their gifts and the shepherd with their sheep is it just possible that amongst all the significance of the type of gift was the fact that the Father was showing his love for his Son?

Good News!

For two hours after Ethan was born I remained with Claire, I was unable to get out of the hospital to tell anyone and whilst I loved being there I also was busting a gut to tell somebody! I one point I saw somebody in the car park through the window. It was all I could do to stop myself throwing it open and shouting to the stranger – “Hey! – we’ve just had a baby!”

God was doing the same with the angelic host. He was so proud of his Sons birth – with the additional things that meant – that he arranged a choir of angel to sing about it. If I could have laid on a choir and an item on the ten o’clock news I would have. Perhaps the reason God laid on the angels was simply because he could? Later on in Jesus life there are two episodes where God cannot contain himself and simply bursts out with statements of love about his Son.

There are many reasons given for the events at Christmas, I’m sure they are all valid but sometimes I wonder if they aren’t all a bit cryptic. I think we can’t overlook the fact that when Jesus was born, God was ecstatic, not just because of what it meant for the world but also because it was his Son being born.

Doesn’t it also give us a glimpse of the Father we have. This is not some stand off – shake hands type Father, this is a genuine-overjoyed-with-his-kids-Dad! I’m not for a second taking away any of the need for reverence and holiness needed to approach God but I think that one reason Jesus came was to show us that God is not just God – he wants to be Dad as well. The first is about who he is, the second is about how he wants us to relate with him.

Happy Christmas.

My love

Saturday, September 15th, 2001

Along the road I struggle, stumbling to the ground.
My Love is there to help me, but I’m still looking down.
Slowly, to my feet I climb. Not noticing the hand
That takes my arm and lifts me up. Until, once more, I stand.
Ignorant, I stagger on. “I’ll do better!”, I proclaim.
My Love continues holding me, lest I should fall again.
I feel my burden slowing me. When I can be no weaker
I fall on my Love, and instantly my burden becomes lighter.

I hear a roar ahead now. Refreshed, I start to run.
Confident, I draw my sword. Declaring loud, “Begone!”.
The beast it waits and watches. As down the path I sprint
And as I reach it, shouting. Its’ companions hem me in.
Now I see my trouble is more than I can bear.
“Why have you forsaken me?” But my Love is standing there.
My Love’s fire, it protects me and I, gazing at the flame,
Go with my Love, who’s leading me, back the way He came.

Down the path we travel now, retreating from the deluge.
And my heart is lifted, as I look upon my refuge.
It somehow looks familiar, I’d seen this place before.
It’s the place I ran from, when I first heard the roar.
Once I rest within my Love, then I see the wisdom.
Had I stayed beside my Love, the hedge was my protection.
But even in my arrogance, when I had fled the fold,
My Love had gone there with me and of my hand, kept hold.

How is it mine, this Love then? What deed does it return?
How did I deserve it? How could it be earned?
The Word of God, it tells me, the price is not for me.
But can I faithfully accept that Love like this is free?
And Yet this Love is costly. The law demands a life.
Not mine, I know, because it needs the purest sacrifice.
The price is high and yet it’s paid. On a blood stained tree.
For reasons rarely understood. My Love’s life paid for me.

He knew I could not make it. He knew my hope grew thin.
He knew my past inheritance, that kept me far from Him.
And yet, He breathed His last for me and then He breathed the first.
So I could revel in His Love, my life now free from curse.
So I rejoice now, in My Love. And I’ll declare His Worth
“The Name that is above all names, the Joy of the whole earth.”
And as I call upon my Love ( for help comes from above ).
Know the truth is this, my friend. Jesus is my Love.

Lord, teach me to pray

Sunday, February 25th, 2001

Oh Lord will you teach me to pray?
Help me get close to You.
Feels like I’m just not getting there.
Don’t know what else to do.
Do You hear my feeble voice?
Is it worth me trying?
Am I doing something wrong?
Should I lament, start crying?
Is that it, do you want my tears?
Should I fast … again?
Should I say the Lord’s Prayer first?
Or maybe at the end?
What is it that I have to do?
To get an answer from You?
Just when’s the best time for You Lord?
Morning? Evening? Afternoon?

But then, what right have I to ask?
To present this shopping list?
When through the day I run my life,
To suit the things I wish.
Oh sure I’ve read my bible,
I say my piece each day.
But when I come to each crossroads,
I don’t ask You the way.
In searching for the plan to pray,
Perhaps all that I’ve done,
Is complicate what comes down to
A chat ‘tween Father and son.
Perhaps it’s not the order,
Or the words I use.
Maybe I just should just relax,
Enjoy my time with You.

“Hi Dad” I would say to You.
“Hello son, how’s the walk?”
“Not too good, I’m struggling”
“Come here, let’s sit and talk”
And maybe during our chat I’d mention my friend too,
She might want to be adopted?
She’d like a Dad like You.
Oh and while I’m here You know that job, the other day?
What d’you reckon I should do I mean – should I go that way?
Oh yes, let’s spend some time like that I really, really want to.
“Bye Dad, I’ll see you later”
“No son, I’m coming with you”

Further lessons from a child

Wednesday, May 24th, 2000

This story again involves my niece Hannah, who at the time of these events was nine and a half. Hannah was out on a pre-Christmas shopping trip with her mother (my sister) and was quite looking forward to it as she was going to buy some new shoes. On their way to the store they passed a homeless man who sat by the side of the path, there was nothing out of the ordinary about this man (other than being homeless) but Hannah could not take here eyes of him.

She turned to her mother and asked if there was anything they could do for him, maybe give him some money. Her mother explained that they had only the £10 to buy the shoes with them. Hannah, without further thought, suggested – nay requested they use the money to buy him some food. Her mother told her that there really was no other money and if they broke that £10 there would not be enough for the shoes but Hannah was adamant.

So, accompanied by her mother, Hannah approached the man, dodging the crush of Christmas shoppers all crossing the road to avoid him. She asked if he would like some food, he said yes he would. So they went to a burger bar and bought him some hot food and a hot drink. He was very grateful and, Hannah remarked, he even gave a bit to his dog who probably had eaten as little as he had.

But there’s more to this tale. Further along their trip, they had gone into a newsagents to look at some cards for Christmas and after some time Hannahs mother saw a ten pound note under her foot. Immediately she looked around to see who could have dropped it – there was no-one around save her and Hannah. She looked for an assistant – none to be seen. She had not moved from that spot for a few minutes and she could not remember this money being there before. God had provided. Hannah had her shoe money restored.

Reflection

Okay so we could come up with any number of explanations for the £10 under the foot. She hadn’t noticed it, she should have handed it in, she could have had the money but not realised and then dropped it.

Perhaps we could come up with critcisms or synicism about the homeless guy. “He was probably a fake”, “He should have got a job”, “I bet he earns more than I do”. All excuses to avoid doing the one thing he wanted – help.

But isn’t all that kind of missing the point of the story?

Surely, the real lesson here is the sacrifice Hannah made. She had no idea the money would be restored, she was prepared to go without the new shoes in order to feed that man (and his dog). She did not consider, how or why he came to be there. She gave no thought to his authenticity. She crossed the road in the opposite direction to most others to speak to him. How many people do you think had done that during the day? How many people do you think had helped him? And the real tough one – how many Christians do you suppose had passed him by? Hannah offered help with no thought of compensation. How many times have we done something looking for the “brownie” point or trusting “God will provide”. What if this time He doesn’t? Does that mean next time we don’t either?

In another story involving Hannah I remark that Christ suggests we become like a child in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps we have more to learn from them than we think.

Hannah was no extra-ordinary nine year old (past tense because she is older now), she is probably the same as most of the ones you know. Try watching them and see what you can learn.

Lord, I wish I had obedience like that

Tuesday, March 24th, 1998

Inspired by a true story.

John sat in a park one day and watched a man training his dog.

The man would throw a stick and the dog would go fetch it and bring it back. As John watched he saw that the dog did not immediately run after the stick but instead waited for the master to say “go” at which he would almost fly after it

“Oh Lord” said John “I wish I had obedience like that”

Then the guy threw the stick and turned to the dog, who was eager to go, and said.. “stay!”. The dog was straining every sinew and muscle in his body to go get that stick but he stayed by his master waiting for what seemed an eternity.

“Oh Lord” said John “to have THAT sort of obedience”

The dog waited and and waited eagerly awaiting the “g” of “go” but until it came he would not move. Then the master finally said “come on boy, lets go home” and walked away from the stick. The dog, without a second glance at the stick, turned and trotted alongside his master, eyes fixed on him, it was as if the dog had completely forgotten the stick even existed.

“Learning anything?” came a voice in John’s heart.

Reflection

The trick in obedience is not just running for the stick but to listen for the command. If the command is “go” we go with all our might but if it is “stay” we must stay with all our might, regardless of the fact that we may “know” what needs to be done.

But when it comes time to leave the stick where the Master has thrown it we must turn, our eyes fixed upon Him, forget the stick and follow our Master.

This is what I term as “letting it go” or “laying it down”

It is the premise of surrendering our will to His, if we truly lay something down it is no longer upon our heart. He may restore it but He may not.

Like Abraham we must walk the road with our eyes lifted to the mountain not gazing upon our potential loss and we must not assume that in laying it down we will have it restored – however we must not assume that we will not have it restored either. To do either would be to fix our eyes upon the stick and not the Master.

Abraham is still known as the “friend of God”. A lyric of one of the songs we sing goes “I’d lay it all down again to hear You say that I’m a friend”. Would we lay it ALL down again? Would any of us lay down our own personal stick.

It may just be that God has something better planned for us that does not include that stick. It may that God has something better planned for us that does include it.

In either case the key is His plan, not the stick. His way is perfect, the goal of the prize of the upward call must be strived for but strived for in Christ Jesus. It is not just the call which is in Christ but the “pressing on” must also be in Him.

Our hope is eternal for Jesus has laid Himself down that we may be restored to life. Just as Abraham received Isaac back “from the dead” because of the Lords provision of the sacrifice, so Our Father in heaven will receive us back from the dead through the sacrifice of Jesus.

In remembering all this we should not forget the words of Jesus “If you love me then you will obey my commands” If we wish to be obedient to the Masters commands then just like the dog we must keep our attention on the Master and on Him alone. Oh and if you’re worried about how we can care for those around us with our eyes only on Jesus then take comfort from the fact that Jesus himself has his eyes fixed only on the Father and he managed to care for others pretty well.

 
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